Many thanks for your two posts on your church search. Yes, it’s painful. You have expressed much of what many feel.
Why do churches so often chose extremes? Some choose slavery to tradition, others are determined to keep reinventing the wheel. Some go all liturgical and formal, while others are relentlessly informal and pared down. Why is it so rare to have both liturgical resources and the freedom of the Spirit, both the psalms and our own kind of music, both the great hymns of the historical church and the best of contemporary songs, both the stories of the Bible and their judicious application to our own situation?
It’s not for me to suggest anything, but wouldn’t it be wonderful if someone could go to the non-denom church where there is only singing and sermon, and explain that it is like always serving a meal consisting of only meat and potatoes. For healthy, balanced eating, couldn’t we please have some vegetables, and fruit, and yogurt, and cheeses, and maybe some water or juice, maybe even coffee (aka a psalm, a prayer of confession, prayers of intercession, a testimony, some silence, open prayer, set prayers said together, prophetic contributions, benediction, etc, etc)?
Thank you for sharing these reflections on finding church. I keep going back to John 9:35 and how Jesus went and found the man whom the church kicked out. It gives me hope, but I still struggle because it’s still unclear where, how, and when Jesus will find my family in a corporate context.
This article captures exactly, EXACTLY where my husband and I are right now. I’ve ended up a snot-faced heap of tears, trying to hold onto this thing, wanting and needing more, but with no where to go to find it. I have decided it is enough that people with special needs kids actually show up at our current church. I help watch them so their dear parents can attend the “concert and a monologue”service. This is the Kingdom and my part in it for me right now. Families like that tended not to enter the PCA churches we were always seeking out. We are no longer in the PCA; too many personal experiences and watching what happened to you drove us out.
My 17 YO daughter also has a bullshit meter; she texted me from 3 seats away about some BS in the middle of the service last Sunday. We knowingly locked eyes. We have a lot of good talks. Bc of what I’ve gone through (purity culture, Reformed circles silencing of and not investing in women, and on and on), she’ll never have to deal with damage certain teachings did to me psychologically. I’ve given her permission to disagree with church leadership. She’ll need that permission in order to carry this thing into adulthood in this country, I’m afraid.
Struggling not to give up on whatever this thing called the church is in the West. Really struggling.
Thank you, Aimee. In many ways, if it's ok to say, your story is our story. I'm thinking of and praying for all God's wounded flock this morning, that our Gentle Shepherd will search and find each of us, hold us close to his chest, soothe and heal us by his tender touch and gentle word. Peace to all God's wounded.
Sep 19, 2023·edited Sep 19, 2023Liked by Aimee Byrd
So much heartache for you. Pained by all you have experienced and the wait. The weeks that have stretched into months and now years. And the burden of wanting your children to have hope that there exist communities of believers that love well and believe well. Thinking these days about the churches of Revelation---those without love, without truth, without generosity, without humility. The only church not rebuked was a church facing unspeakable suffering and grief, while in it clinging to Christ. For me too, it brings to mind Mary Magdalene who sought his body in a garden of death. She was given her Lord and so much more. May God lead you to his living body and a garden of life.
I relate in many ways to this Aimee. “Numbness, starchiness, rigidity, spaces with the life sucked out of them, try-hards to make church cool, the gospel be made into a gimmick, weirdos, deceit, spiritual abuse, apathy, hate, the institution, corruption, and complete deconstruction.”
Yep... all of that. And I’ll add more: misogyny, foolishness, robotic parroting/recycling of false and sub-biblical ideas, a shallow theology of forgiveness, flinching against survivors of domestic and sexual abuse who tell their stories, disdain for the downtrodden... the embracing of strong delusion.
I’m in a small Presbyterian congregation here in Oz. There are the probs I’ve listed, but the minister is good and some (a few) in the congregation are not displaying those problems. It’s a battle for me but I’m learning how better to remonstrate with and reason with the problem ones.
I followed your journey closely as I was being targeted for not being orthodox by our new young reformed pastor at the same time. Albeit not nearly to the same degree. But pain is pain. We left our longtime church (where I was the church secretary and a deacon). I struggled in a dark place for a while, but we found an ECO Presbyterian church with husband and wife co pastors where we were loved and welcomed. I realize they are not everywhere but their beliefs? We are all called to ministry. There is liturgy—call to confession, Old and New Testament readings, praise music at the beginning, hymn at the end. We feel very blessed. I pray that for you and your family.
As for the other church? The pastor left, they lost a good bit of their congregation, but they are on the road to recovery. We’ve thought of returning—we still have good friends there—but we can’t leave our new church and friends who blessed us so much when we were hurting.
Yes we are all called to the Church; but there are times we can be faithful in a season without one. God knows our hearts. I could go on and on about the state of american churches. They are being shaken and will be resurrected… peace to your family.
So glad that you found a church. It was an ECO pastor who made that recommendation to us that I quote in the beginning of this article. There aren't any close by us, though.
This has been my experience, although my church has a reasonable liturgy. I watched a video - can find it if it's meaningful, by an ex-pastor. His conclusion was that the pervasive culture in tight-knit/legalistic churches is a direct result of the legalism. I've mulled that over quite a bit and have some ideas why it is true, but I'm not so sure whether it is a bad thing as the YouTuber suggests.
Here's my thought. In a legalistic and insular community, there is a lot of negativity towards associating or fellowshipping with outsiders, especially if that fellowship is deep friendships. Therefore, the people you can invite over for dinner or hang out with in an approved fashion, unless they are "mission projects" are the people in the service. If I have a Christian friend who is not RP or not at least NAPARC, then the implication is that this friend is going to lead me away from the narrowly-defined truth, and especially if I share my angst with the RP community.
That said, I do really miss the deep fellowship that existed in the small RP churches, and that has been a gaping hole in my life as I attend a larger church where people aren't looking for that sort of deep fellowship within the church community - they must be finding it elsewhere.
I had one of these conversations with the Lord early Monday morning after returning to a local mega church on Sunday. Like you, we've been searching for a smaller local church where we could connect with other believers in TRUE fellowship of the Spirit, but after 16 churches we've grown weary. So, even though it wasn't what we wanted, rather than stay isolated, we went back. I drug my feet. Sigh.
Then the Lord spoke to me from Heb 10:35-36, and His message was simply: "Hang in there. Be patient. I'm working on something. There are people there who are struggling just like you are. Wait for Me to work." I delight to do Your will, Lord. So I'll go and not fuss so much about it. But can You hurry up?
I'm not suggesting this as a way for you, just sharing what happened for me when I came to this point of a crisis in Christian faith. I have left it for Zen Buddhism. Because, frankly, more of Jesus's teaching presence seems to be in that practice, without him being a part of it, than I found in any church. There is a simplicity that brings with it a practical realization of the suggestion "Peace, be still." Its basic teachings are about compassion, simple observations of how to treat one another well, how to let go of unimportant things and yet not sweat the big stuff either. Yes, if you really want to, you can study the teachings for years. But in Zen, you can learn the important things in less than five minutes. And practice them daily. Faith should be as natural as breathing. Respecting the teacher, the teachings, and being part of the community that follows the path of that faith. Christianity has, except in very few cases, lost that simplicity. Christianity, at this point, has given me no reason to go back. But I do hope you find the answer that is right for you. It was a great relief to find mine.
You’re right. I should have said western churches. I think Jesus’ church flourishes when it is not a dominant hierarchical power structure. We should all be reading and taking to heart Acts 2.
Debbie, I don’t think there is something wrong with you. I don’t think you are “expecting too much”.
This verse has been resounding in my spirit recently: “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:35)
Churches where there is coldness, where people wear their Christian masks and shun or condemn anyone who is being authentic, are not communities of genuine disciples.
Thanks for sharing a part of your story, Debbie. I do have that and it is no small thing. It is really hard to do it alone; I have friends in your position. It can feel very lonely and vulnerable.
Many thanks for your two posts on your church search. Yes, it’s painful. You have expressed much of what many feel.
Why do churches so often chose extremes? Some choose slavery to tradition, others are determined to keep reinventing the wheel. Some go all liturgical and formal, while others are relentlessly informal and pared down. Why is it so rare to have both liturgical resources and the freedom of the Spirit, both the psalms and our own kind of music, both the great hymns of the historical church and the best of contemporary songs, both the stories of the Bible and their judicious application to our own situation?
It’s not for me to suggest anything, but wouldn’t it be wonderful if someone could go to the non-denom church where there is only singing and sermon, and explain that it is like always serving a meal consisting of only meat and potatoes. For healthy, balanced eating, couldn’t we please have some vegetables, and fruit, and yogurt, and cheeses, and maybe some water or juice, maybe even coffee (aka a psalm, a prayer of confession, prayers of intercession, a testimony, some silence, open prayer, set prayers said together, prophetic contributions, benediction, etc, etc)?
Meanwhile, Aimee, keep on keeping on!
Preach!
Thank you for sharing these reflections on finding church. I keep going back to John 9:35 and how Jesus went and found the man whom the church kicked out. It gives me hope, but I still struggle because it’s still unclear where, how, and when Jesus will find my family in a corporate context.
I feel this too. I do feel Christ's presence in an intimate way in this liminal space, and myself seeking that.
How long, O Lord?
This article captures exactly, EXACTLY where my husband and I are right now. I’ve ended up a snot-faced heap of tears, trying to hold onto this thing, wanting and needing more, but with no where to go to find it. I have decided it is enough that people with special needs kids actually show up at our current church. I help watch them so their dear parents can attend the “concert and a monologue”service. This is the Kingdom and my part in it for me right now. Families like that tended not to enter the PCA churches we were always seeking out. We are no longer in the PCA; too many personal experiences and watching what happened to you drove us out.
My 17 YO daughter also has a bullshit meter; she texted me from 3 seats away about some BS in the middle of the service last Sunday. We knowingly locked eyes. We have a lot of good talks. Bc of what I’ve gone through (purity culture, Reformed circles silencing of and not investing in women, and on and on), she’ll never have to deal with damage certain teachings did to me psychologically. I’ve given her permission to disagree with church leadership. She’ll need that permission in order to carry this thing into adulthood in this country, I’m afraid.
Struggling not to give up on whatever this thing called the church is in the West. Really struggling.
I feel this pain, Moira. And I am hearing from so many who do. It seems to be a time of lament and revealing.
I lift weights and work out to deal with the emotions and lament. Forgot to ask Piper and the CBMW if that’s ok. Oops.
😂
Thank you, Aimee. In many ways, if it's ok to say, your story is our story. I'm thinking of and praying for all God's wounded flock this morning, that our Gentle Shepherd will search and find each of us, hold us close to his chest, soothe and heal us by his tender touch and gentle word. Peace to all God's wounded.
Yes, Christ wants to hear our voice (Song of Songs 8:14). Thank you, I'm so glad to hear this led you to prayer. He is present in our grief.
So much heartache for you. Pained by all you have experienced and the wait. The weeks that have stretched into months and now years. And the burden of wanting your children to have hope that there exist communities of believers that love well and believe well. Thinking these days about the churches of Revelation---those without love, without truth, without generosity, without humility. The only church not rebuked was a church facing unspeakable suffering and grief, while in it clinging to Christ. For me too, it brings to mind Mary Magdalene who sought his body in a garden of death. She was given her Lord and so much more. May God lead you to his living body and a garden of life.
Thank you, Anna. You have been one to show me Christ over and over in this time.
I relate in many ways to this Aimee. “Numbness, starchiness, rigidity, spaces with the life sucked out of them, try-hards to make church cool, the gospel be made into a gimmick, weirdos, deceit, spiritual abuse, apathy, hate, the institution, corruption, and complete deconstruction.”
Yep... all of that. And I’ll add more: misogyny, foolishness, robotic parroting/recycling of false and sub-biblical ideas, a shallow theology of forgiveness, flinching against survivors of domestic and sexual abuse who tell their stories, disdain for the downtrodden... the embracing of strong delusion.
I’m in a small Presbyterian congregation here in Oz. There are the probs I’ve listed, but the minister is good and some (a few) in the congregation are not displaying those problems. It’s a battle for me but I’m learning how better to remonstrate with and reason with the problem ones.
Thank you so much for writing this.
I followed your journey closely as I was being targeted for not being orthodox by our new young reformed pastor at the same time. Albeit not nearly to the same degree. But pain is pain. We left our longtime church (where I was the church secretary and a deacon). I struggled in a dark place for a while, but we found an ECO Presbyterian church with husband and wife co pastors where we were loved and welcomed. I realize they are not everywhere but their beliefs? We are all called to ministry. There is liturgy—call to confession, Old and New Testament readings, praise music at the beginning, hymn at the end. We feel very blessed. I pray that for you and your family.
As for the other church? The pastor left, they lost a good bit of their congregation, but they are on the road to recovery. We’ve thought of returning—we still have good friends there—but we can’t leave our new church and friends who blessed us so much when we were hurting.
Yes we are all called to the Church; but there are times we can be faithful in a season without one. God knows our hearts. I could go on and on about the state of american churches. They are being shaken and will be resurrected… peace to your family.
So glad that you found a church. It was an ECO pastor who made that recommendation to us that I quote in the beginning of this article. There aren't any close by us, though.
It’s not only American churches.
This has been my experience, although my church has a reasonable liturgy. I watched a video - can find it if it's meaningful, by an ex-pastor. His conclusion was that the pervasive culture in tight-knit/legalistic churches is a direct result of the legalism. I've mulled that over quite a bit and have some ideas why it is true, but I'm not so sure whether it is a bad thing as the YouTuber suggests.
Here's my thought. In a legalistic and insular community, there is a lot of negativity towards associating or fellowshipping with outsiders, especially if that fellowship is deep friendships. Therefore, the people you can invite over for dinner or hang out with in an approved fashion, unless they are "mission projects" are the people in the service. If I have a Christian friend who is not RP or not at least NAPARC, then the implication is that this friend is going to lead me away from the narrowly-defined truth, and especially if I share my angst with the RP community.
That said, I do really miss the deep fellowship that existed in the small RP churches, and that has been a gaping hole in my life as I attend a larger church where people aren't looking for that sort of deep fellowship within the church community - they must be finding it elsewhere.
I resonate with this as well. It seems so much easier, I guess, to lean towards rigidity or chaos. And I've seen deep fellowship in both extremes.
Lord, us too, Aimee, us too. Though miles away from you, we're in it with you.
I had one of these conversations with the Lord early Monday morning after returning to a local mega church on Sunday. Like you, we've been searching for a smaller local church where we could connect with other believers in TRUE fellowship of the Spirit, but after 16 churches we've grown weary. So, even though it wasn't what we wanted, rather than stay isolated, we went back. I drug my feet. Sigh.
Then the Lord spoke to me from Heb 10:35-36, and His message was simply: "Hang in there. Be patient. I'm working on something. There are people there who are struggling just like you are. Wait for Me to work." I delight to do Your will, Lord. So I'll go and not fuss so much about it. But can You hurry up?
I'm not suggesting this as a way for you, just sharing what happened for me when I came to this point of a crisis in Christian faith. I have left it for Zen Buddhism. Because, frankly, more of Jesus's teaching presence seems to be in that practice, without him being a part of it, than I found in any church. There is a simplicity that brings with it a practical realization of the suggestion "Peace, be still." Its basic teachings are about compassion, simple observations of how to treat one another well, how to let go of unimportant things and yet not sweat the big stuff either. Yes, if you really want to, you can study the teachings for years. But in Zen, you can learn the important things in less than five minutes. And practice them daily. Faith should be as natural as breathing. Respecting the teacher, the teachings, and being part of the community that follows the path of that faith. Christianity has, except in very few cases, lost that simplicity. Christianity, at this point, has given me no reason to go back. But I do hope you find the answer that is right for you. It was a great relief to find mine.
You’re right. I should have said western churches. I think Jesus’ church flourishes when it is not a dominant hierarchical power structure. We should all be reading and taking to heart Acts 2.
Yes, I wrote about this in my previous post. It makes us feel like we are being insatiable but really we are looking for the basics!
Debbie, I don’t think there is something wrong with you. I don’t think you are “expecting too much”.
This verse has been resounding in my spirit recently: “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:35)
Churches where there is coldness, where people wear their Christian masks and shun or condemn anyone who is being authentic, are not communities of genuine disciples.
Thanks for sharing a part of your story, Debbie. I do have that and it is no small thing. It is really hard to do it alone; I have friends in your position. It can feel very lonely and vulnerable.