I can't wait to read it, because I've been asking a lot of those questions, too. White church women in particular need to come to terms with not only our acceptance of being infantilized but our willingness to comply as the price of some imaginary "protection" that's been anything but. So long as we hold on to our proximity to white male power nothing will change, but if once we choose not to--everything might.
Theres another book coming out in a week I am super excited about that goes into the chronological history of the NT church and will cover things like the participatory meetings, the non-starter of the modern pastor, multiple elders, etc. And Frank Viola is pro-women also. I have been very blessed by his ministry and conferneces, and since he had this book vetted by multiple scholars, it should be a vast improvement on the original.
The Untold Story of the New Testament Church [Revised and Expanded] https://a.co/d/a3xJSSC
“Change is hard. It costs. It disrupts. We resist it because we think we are secure, and the anxiety that comes with increased awareness and the weight of our choices is real. Remember: inaction is also a choice.”
Thank you for naming that! I can’t tell you the number of people I’ve had real conversations with about this very thing and I’m always surprised to hear “I don’t think Paul meant to restrict women from the pastoral office, but it would be too hard to change how we do things” it breaks my heart for women all over again. That we’d rather sit in comfort than offer women the freedom they have been given in Christ.
“Inaction is a choice.” Yes! That is such a key observation, one that seems obvious after the fact but is not obvious until something spurs an awakening. I hope this book will be the catalyst for many women (and men)! Thanks for this insightful review.
I love your review! Your book, Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, was one of the first of many I read on a journey that led to me believing in Women's ordination (and Barr's first book was the final push.) You ladies rock!
I’m definitely looking forward to Dr. Barr’s book.
Aimee, you hit the nail on the head with calling out how many in the complementarian camp will actually give it a good faith reading.
Now that I am officially out of it myself, I can say as a past “stake holder” it is too difficult to assess honestly without bias. It is too incriminating. I remember one conversation about Dr Barr’s first book and it was just brushed past, dismissed without assessing the arguments because it started with her story! Then accusations about ascribing motive and such. All weak, secondary argument tactics. Not a good faith reading. Not taking into account her field of study and degree.
I truly do hope this continues to bring change, yet I admit I struggle with having hope for it.
Yes, the dismissiveness and ascribing motives is so revealing. Yesterday, someone shared with me that their conversation partner (and I say that lightly), just shut it down by saying it was satanic. Wow! But then again, I have been through it and that is exactly how it was handled. Vilify the messenger.
Wow, even more excited. You made a better case for reading the book than anyone else so far. These are the very historical and ecclesialogical questions I am always most interested in!
I doubt it will go into the Jewish and ancient Nazarenes piece, but maybe someday a Messianic Jewish scholar will do that too. There's tons of good scholarly stuff coming out about these early centuries Messianic Jewish groups. Old Testament Judaism and NT Messianic Judaism both had a place for women prophets, judges, rulers of synagogues, teachers, deacons, widows and virgins dedicated to ministry, elders, apostles...but Rabbinic Judaism also seems to have stamped that out pretty well eventually also, and having a historian trace that would be a great added piece to Beth Allison's work! And I'd love to know of unusual Jewish women down thru the last two millenia who made an interesting mark. Also a book like that including the controversies about women in modern Messianic Judaism and the feminist rumblings in ultra-Orthodox Judaism circles, where haredi women are quietly working on the inside and say they are doing it "their way" -- that would be fascinating too. 🥰
This book sounds like an interesting read, but a serious question. Why does her shirt say “…since 1AD”? The gospel didn’t begin to be preached until around 30AD, from what I understand about the history of the life of Christ.
Is it harmful and dehumanizing to believe in the inerrancy of scripture and to hold to the confessional view of the offices? If you truly believed in the ordination of women to eldership it would have been simple to just leave and find a church that matches your convictions. Most of them do.
Believing in womens ordination is only one point of theology to look at when finding a church. I believe in women's ordination but I also believe in reformed/calvinist theology and trust me, finding all that is not simple. I Praise God I actually did find a church that is reformed, confessional, evangelical, and egalitarian.
I can't wait to read it, because I've been asking a lot of those questions, too. White church women in particular need to come to terms with not only our acceptance of being infantilized but our willingness to comply as the price of some imaginary "protection" that's been anything but. So long as we hold on to our proximity to white male power nothing will change, but if once we choose not to--everything might.
Theres another book coming out in a week I am super excited about that goes into the chronological history of the NT church and will cover things like the participatory meetings, the non-starter of the modern pastor, multiple elders, etc. And Frank Viola is pro-women also. I have been very blessed by his ministry and conferneces, and since he had this book vetted by multiple scholars, it should be a vast improvement on the original.
The Untold Story of the New Testament Church [Revised and Expanded] https://a.co/d/a3xJSSC
I used some of Viola's material in my doctoral thesis. I'll look into this one!
“Change is hard. It costs. It disrupts. We resist it because we think we are secure, and the anxiety that comes with increased awareness and the weight of our choices is real. Remember: inaction is also a choice.”
Thank you for naming that! I can’t tell you the number of people I’ve had real conversations with about this very thing and I’m always surprised to hear “I don’t think Paul meant to restrict women from the pastoral office, but it would be too hard to change how we do things” it breaks my heart for women all over again. That we’d rather sit in comfort than offer women the freedom they have been given in Christ.
Yes, and staying legitimizes it.
“Inaction is a choice.” Yes! That is such a key observation, one that seems obvious after the fact but is not obvious until something spurs an awakening. I hope this book will be the catalyst for many women (and men)! Thanks for this insightful review.
I hope so too!
I love your review! Your book, Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, was one of the first of many I read on a journey that led to me believing in Women's ordination (and Barr's first book was the final push.) You ladies rock!
Thanks for reading, Sarah!
wow, Aimee! thank you!
I look forward to the book next month! Thanks for the sneak 🫣
I’m definitely looking forward to Dr. Barr’s book.
Aimee, you hit the nail on the head with calling out how many in the complementarian camp will actually give it a good faith reading.
Now that I am officially out of it myself, I can say as a past “stake holder” it is too difficult to assess honestly without bias. It is too incriminating. I remember one conversation about Dr Barr’s first book and it was just brushed past, dismissed without assessing the arguments because it started with her story! Then accusations about ascribing motive and such. All weak, secondary argument tactics. Not a good faith reading. Not taking into account her field of study and degree.
I truly do hope this continues to bring change, yet I admit I struggle with having hope for it.
Yes, the dismissiveness and ascribing motives is so revealing. Yesterday, someone shared with me that their conversation partner (and I say that lightly), just shut it down by saying it was satanic. Wow! But then again, I have been through it and that is exactly how it was handled. Vilify the messenger.
Wow, even more excited. You made a better case for reading the book than anyone else so far. These are the very historical and ecclesialogical questions I am always most interested in!
I doubt it will go into the Jewish and ancient Nazarenes piece, but maybe someday a Messianic Jewish scholar will do that too. There's tons of good scholarly stuff coming out about these early centuries Messianic Jewish groups. Old Testament Judaism and NT Messianic Judaism both had a place for women prophets, judges, rulers of synagogues, teachers, deacons, widows and virgins dedicated to ministry, elders, apostles...but Rabbinic Judaism also seems to have stamped that out pretty well eventually also, and having a historian trace that would be a great added piece to Beth Allison's work! And I'd love to know of unusual Jewish women down thru the last two millenia who made an interesting mark. Also a book like that including the controversies about women in modern Messianic Judaism and the feminist rumblings in ultra-Orthodox Judaism circles, where haredi women are quietly working on the inside and say they are doing it "their way" -- that would be fascinating too. 🥰
That would be a great book!
This book sounds like an interesting read, but a serious question. Why does her shirt say “…since 1AD”? The gospel didn’t begin to be preached until around 30AD, from what I understand about the history of the life of Christ.
Good question: We see Mary preaching it already in her Magnificat, and Elizabeth when she sees her!
It seems the problem all along was you were in the wrong church. There are plenty of denominations that ordain women pastors.
Or maybe the problem all along is that churches should not be places of harm and dehumanization.
Is it harmful and dehumanizing to believe in the inerrancy of scripture and to hold to the confessional view of the offices? If you truly believed in the ordination of women to eldership it would have been simple to just leave and find a church that matches your convictions. Most of them do.
“It would have been simple”
Overcoming indoctrination and oppression is hard. Aimee worked hard to escape.
Believing in womens ordination is only one point of theology to look at when finding a church. I believe in women's ordination but I also believe in reformed/calvinist theology and trust me, finding all that is not simple. I Praise God I actually did find a church that is reformed, confessional, evangelical, and egalitarian.
It's a preorder bonus if you are doing a group study or book club: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSf0glmIAUHr1-gneDRZ5yYXjX7rlfn58O7u2BKbGDWNUR---A/viewform?fbclid=IwY2xjawIawJtleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHe593M5QES1GeEu2UtiAeYBIMvwC69ocSsWtmWbQQNdbwd6z6BfHvsZ-2w_aem_Pqm2CCoYN1fhFBjxo8tP7A
Aimee, did you know Karen and I have known each other for about 30 years? She’s awesome.
I love learning these connections!
Hi Karen!